So my correct understanding is that the Stone is scammed by the monk to take his offer to become mortal, because it's a virtuos deed for the monk? Therefore what the author implies that this cosmic bureaucracy, exemplified by the monk, set the tragic story in stone for their own personal gain. I would love to hear your thoughts on this
One of the fascinating things about this book is to consider what the motives are behind certain actions that the characters undertake. There really was no cosmic need for the stone to become mortal in the first place, after all.
I think this is a pretty good example of the somewhat sardonic attitude the author takes to organized Buddhism.
No and I understand the confusion. In the earlier manuscript (https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E7%B4%85%E6%A8%93%E5%A4%A2) the story was quite different: because the rock couldn't move or transform itself, it asked the monks to bring it to the mundane world. The monks initially didn't want to be the courier but give in to its begging, turning the rock into a jade.
If this book wasn't a Chinese classic, I wouldn't choose read it but am doing it for learning language and writing. This book feels twisted like they're all suspended in purgatory in pre-death. I don't like the energy of this story.
Something I’m struggling to understand when I read this section of the story is the motivation for the Buddhist monk to deliver the stone to the mortal realm. His tone reads to me as sometimes playful and sometimes disdainful(?) when calling the stone a “stupid thing.” I’m also not sure I understand what is meant by the monk and priest delivering souls to the world and why this is a virtuous deed. I feel I generally don’t understand the spiritual setting that begins this story and what sort of tone it implies to the reader.
I get the big picture that Jia Baoyu and Lin Daiyu’s souls(?) have divine fantastical origins and they’re fated to meet in the human world due to their bond/debt. But I’m otherwise lost when it comes to the interactions of the monk and priest throughout the novel in general. On surface level cultural knowledge alone, I expect them to be virtuous noble individuals, but the Yangs translation repeatedly mentions “scabby” priests which leaves me confused.
"Something I’m struggling to understand when I read this section of the story is the motivation for the Buddhist monk to deliver the stone to the mortal realm."
That's what I had in mind too, until I read the Geng-Chen edition (https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E7%B4%85%E6%A8%93%E5%A4%A2/%E7%AC%AC001%E5%9B%9E), which is much clearer and more logic in my opinion. To meet the rock's request, the monk turned it into a jade, mainly as a kind favor, from my understanding. The jade then went along with Baoyu (jade-servant incarnate) to witness the whole story.
Buddhists believe that all beings suffer. They believe in eliminating all emotions, attachments, and desires. The stone clearly still has a fondness for the human world, so it is said to be foolish. "Delivering souls" in the original text refers to guiding several souls struggling in the human world to enlightenment, so it is a virtue. However, the main theme of this book is not to express that Buddhism is the magic key to solving suffering, but rather it is more realistic. Therefore, there is no need to get too obsessed with these supernatural elements.
Do you understand what this blog and project is about?
I suggest that you spend more time reading around and understanding what I am doing before you start telling people not to look deeply into things in the text.
There's nothing wrong with being from mainland China. I lived there for years, and have many friends from mainland China. However, I can tell from the tone of your comments that you are from there.
Please lighten up.
"Deliver" means the same thing as "save" in English in that context.
“The Yangs also include a full paragraph that has no backing in the original text:
“The old romances give us only outlines of their characters’ lives with a number of poems about them,” said the monk. “We’re never told the details of their intimate family life or daily meals. Besides, most breeze-and-moonlight tales deal with secret assignations and elopements, and have never really expressed the true love between a young man and a girl. I’m sure when these spirits go down to earth, we’ll see lovers and lechers, worthy people, simpletons and scoundrels unlike those in earlier romances.””
"The stone never asks to become mortal. Instead, it’s the Buddhist monk that offers the stone a mortal adventure."
In the Geng-Chen edition, the rock asked to be taken into the mundane world because it couldn't transform into a jade or roam freely. The monk didn't offer to help but accepted its repeated request. (「此石聽了，不覺打動凡心，也想要到人間去享一享這榮華富貴，但自恨粗蠢，不得已，便口吐人言，向那僧道說道...這石凡心已熾，那裏聽得進這話去，乃复苦求再四。二仙知不可強制...將一塊大石登時變成一塊鮮明瑩洁的美玉...」)
------
"The book has nothing to do with “true love.”"
We might have different understanding what is "true love", as from what I see in the Bao-Dai plot line, they have both demonstrated true love (actually I find "true" superfluous because fake love is simply not love, just as pseudoscience is not science). I'm choosing only one line from each person here:
In chapter 34 (情中情因情感妹妹 錯里錯以錯勸哥哥), Daiyu was seen earlier 「只見兩個眼睛腫的桃兒一般，滿面淚光」, and later received the used handkerchief, she「...体貼出手帕子的意思來，不覺神魂馳蕩：寶玉這番苦心，能領會我這番苦意，又令我可喜，我這番苦意，不知將來如何，又令我可悲，忽然好好的送兩塊舊帕子來，若不是領我深意，單看了這帕子，又令我可笑，再想令人私相傳遞與我，又可懼，我自己每每好哭，想來也無味，又令我可愧。如此左思右想，一時五內沸然炙起。黛玉由不得餘意綿纏，令掌燈，也想不起嫌疑避諱等事...」and wrote the three poems of tears.
In chapter 57 (慧紫鵑情辭試莽玉 慈姨媽愛語慰痴顰), Baoyu cried the entire day hearing Daiyu might go back to Suzhou. Then when Zijuan told him that he was betrothed to Baoqin, he almost lost his mind (「『...誰定了親？定了誰？...我只願這會子立刻我死了，把心迸出來你們瞧見了，然後連皮帶骨一概都化成一股灰，——灰還有形跡，不如再化一股煙，——煙還可凝聚，人還看見，須得一陣大亂風吹的四面八方都登時散了，這才好！』一面說，一面又滾下淚來。」). Knowing this, Daiyu 「心內未嘗不傷感，待他睡了，便直泣了一夜...」. What I find brilliant is Cao arranged a maid to witness the proof of love and later speak the truth 「萬兩黃金容易得，知心一個也難求」.
So my correct understanding is that the Stone is scammed by the monk to take his offer to become mortal, because it's a virtuos deed for the monk? Therefore what the author implies that this cosmic bureaucracy, exemplified by the monk, set the tragic story in stone for their own personal gain. I would love to hear your thoughts on this
Yeah - I think you're onto something here.
One of the fascinating things about this book is to consider what the motives are behind certain actions that the characters undertake. There really was no cosmic need for the stone to become mortal in the first place, after all.
I think this is a pretty good example of the somewhat sardonic attitude the author takes to organized Buddhism.
No and I understand the confusion. In the earlier manuscript (https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E7%B4%85%E6%A8%93%E5%A4%A2) the story was quite different: because the rock couldn't move or transform itself, it asked the monks to bring it to the mundane world. The monks initially didn't want to be the courier but give in to its begging, turning the rock into a jade.
Thank you for the translation.
If this book wasn't a Chinese classic, I wouldn't choose read it but am doing it for learning language and writing. This book feels twisted like they're all suspended in purgatory in pre-death. I don't like the energy of this story.
Something I’m struggling to understand when I read this section of the story is the motivation for the Buddhist monk to deliver the stone to the mortal realm. His tone reads to me as sometimes playful and sometimes disdainful(?) when calling the stone a “stupid thing.” I’m also not sure I understand what is meant by the monk and priest delivering souls to the world and why this is a virtuous deed. I feel I generally don’t understand the spiritual setting that begins this story and what sort of tone it implies to the reader.
I get the big picture that Jia Baoyu and Lin Daiyu’s souls(?) have divine fantastical origins and they’re fated to meet in the human world due to their bond/debt. But I’m otherwise lost when it comes to the interactions of the monk and priest throughout the novel in general. On surface level cultural knowledge alone, I expect them to be virtuous noble individuals, but the Yangs translation repeatedly mentions “scabby” priests which leaves me confused.
"Something I’m struggling to understand when I read this section of the story is the motivation for the Buddhist monk to deliver the stone to the mortal realm."
That's what I had in mind too, until I read the Geng-Chen edition (https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E7%B4%85%E6%A8%93%E5%A4%A2/%E7%AC%AC001%E5%9B%9E), which is much clearer and more logic in my opinion. To meet the rock's request, the monk turned it into a jade, mainly as a kind favor, from my understanding. The jade then went along with Baoyu (jade-servant incarnate) to witness the whole story.
Buddhists believe that all beings suffer. They believe in eliminating all emotions, attachments, and desires. The stone clearly still has a fondness for the human world, so it is said to be foolish. "Delivering souls" in the original text refers to guiding several souls struggling in the human world to enlightenment, so it is a virtue. However, the main theme of this book is not to express that Buddhism is the magic key to solving suffering, but rather it is more realistic. Therefore, there is no need to get too obsessed with these supernatural elements.
I disagree. The supernatural elements of this book are just as much a part of the book as are the characters.
This stuff is in there for a reason. There's nothing wrong with asking questions or looking deep into this stuff.
I presume you are from mainland China.
Do you understand what this blog and project is about?
I suggest that you spend more time reading around and understanding what I am doing before you start telling people not to look deeply into things in the text.
There's nothing wrong with being from mainland China. I lived there for years, and have many friends from mainland China. However, I can tell from the tone of your comments that you are from there.
Please lighten up.
"Deliver" means the same thing as "save" in English in that context.
“The Yangs also include a full paragraph that has no backing in the original text:
“The old romances give us only outlines of their characters’ lives with a number of poems about them,” said the monk. “We’re never told the details of their intimate family life or daily meals. Besides, most breeze-and-moonlight tales deal with secret assignations and elopements, and have never really expressed the true love between a young man and a girl. I’m sure when these spirits go down to earth, we’ll see lovers and lechers, worthy people, simpletons and scoundrels unlike those in earlier romances.””
Well obviously they used the Geng-Chen edition: 「歷來幾個風流人物，不過傳其大概以及詩詞篇章而已，至家庭閨閣中一飲一食，總未述記。再者，大半風月故事，不過偷香竊玉、暗約私奔而已，幷不曾將兒女之真情發泄一二。想這一干人入世，其情痴色鬼，賢愚不肖者，悉與前人傳述不同矣。」(https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E7%B4%85%E6%A8%93%E5%A4%A2/%E7%AC%AC001%E5%9B%9E)
------
"The stone never asks to become mortal. Instead, it’s the Buddhist monk that offers the stone a mortal adventure."
In the Geng-Chen edition, the rock asked to be taken into the mundane world because it couldn't transform into a jade or roam freely. The monk didn't offer to help but accepted its repeated request. (「此石聽了，不覺打動凡心，也想要到人間去享一享這榮華富貴，但自恨粗蠢，不得已，便口吐人言，向那僧道說道...這石凡心已熾，那裏聽得進這話去，乃复苦求再四。二仙知不可強制...將一塊大石登時變成一塊鮮明瑩洁的美玉...」)
------
"The book has nothing to do with “true love.”"
We might have different understanding what is "true love", as from what I see in the Bao-Dai plot line, they have both demonstrated true love (actually I find "true" superfluous because fake love is simply not love, just as pseudoscience is not science). I'm choosing only one line from each person here:
In chapter 34 (情中情因情感妹妹 錯里錯以錯勸哥哥), Daiyu was seen earlier 「只見兩個眼睛腫的桃兒一般，滿面淚光」, and later received the used handkerchief, she「...体貼出手帕子的意思來，不覺神魂馳蕩：寶玉這番苦心，能領會我這番苦意，又令我可喜，我這番苦意，不知將來如何，又令我可悲，忽然好好的送兩塊舊帕子來，若不是領我深意，單看了這帕子，又令我可笑，再想令人私相傳遞與我，又可懼，我自己每每好哭，想來也無味，又令我可愧。如此左思右想，一時五內沸然炙起。黛玉由不得餘意綿纏，令掌燈，也想不起嫌疑避諱等事...」and wrote the three poems of tears.
In chapter 57 (慧紫鵑情辭試莽玉 慈姨媽愛語慰痴顰), Baoyu cried the entire day hearing Daiyu might go back to Suzhou. Then when Zijuan told him that he was betrothed to Baoqin, he almost lost his mind (「『...誰定了親？定了誰？...我只願這會子立刻我死了，把心迸出來你們瞧見了，然後連皮帶骨一概都化成一股灰，——灰還有形跡，不如再化一股煙，——煙還可凝聚，人還看見，須得一陣大亂風吹的四面八方都登時散了，這才好！』一面說，一面又滾下淚來。」). Knowing this, Daiyu 「心內未嘗不傷感，待他睡了，便直泣了一夜...」. What I find brilliant is Cao arranged a maid to witness the proof of love and later speak the truth 「萬兩黃金容易得，知心一個也難求」.
度脫幾個="deliver a few souls"? that's inexact.
How do you propose changing the translation?
度脫 absolutely has to refer to "saving" (or "delivering") souls in the Buddhist sense. It's simply what the verb means in this context.
Both of the other major English translations say exactly the same thing. It's obvious from the context that this is what is being referred to.
How is that inexact?